Rootes1725cc

I've just had the invoice through from COLTECH RACING LTD for my fast-road engine conversion on my Humber Sceptre Mk2.
It has taken them 8 months to complete the work on my car. 8 months !!!! I was initially told 2-4 weeks max, when I first booked it in.
See this thread for more info on what I actually had done http://www.rootes1725cc.info/board305/v ... f=3&t=1117

THE INVOICE (JUL 17th 2014)
£3250 + VAT(£750 = £3900
That is way beyond reasonable. It is double what we agreed.
Never at any point did they say anything was going to cost more, and I supplied all the materials, parts, and everything.

WHAT WE AGREED (NOV 6th 2013)
£1800

There were a few problems caused by the reconditioned gearbox not working. It had to be repaired twice (by a company they recommended), and the faults were only found after it had been married, and fitted back in the car.
The first time it wouldn't go into gear. It was returned to the gearbox people, and they fixed it (it was a tiny bolt, that had been put in the wrong place).
The 2nd time the overdrive switch wouldn't work!! The Gearbox people refused to fix it, saying they "never touched the overdrive. The switch must have been knocked by Coltec."
None of the gearbox problems were my fault.
It worked perfectly fine (slight crunch in 4th) before I gave it to them - so why should I be charged for it?
The gearbox guy has now accepted the £190+VAT, for it not going into gear, but no-one will except the second part.
The Gearbox people say it's Coltec's fault, and Coltec says it's the gearbox people's fault.
Meanwhile, I'm in the middle. I have refused to pay the £184+VAT for it.

To get any kind of progress report, I would always have to call Coltec up, and get an update as to where we were at with the engine.
They would tell me what they were doing, or what they had done. Like "we've skimmed the head" etc.
99% of the time, I thought they were just telling me what I wanted to hear, just so I'd feel like the car was being worked on.
At no point did they say that anything was going to cost more, or it was going to take longer than we had agreed, or that there was something they hadn't initially accounted for, and it was going to increase costs.

So when he said "We are just sorting out the Manifold", I was led to believe that it was part of either the section marked 'Refit and Set-Up' or it was part of the 'Labour / Rebuild' costs. We had discussed the manifold in depth before commencing.
We had not discussed that he was going to charge me an extra £462 !!

Unfortunately I have no Fixed Price Agreement' and nothing signed or on paper (as I wrote it on my phone), and Coltec wrote it in their book, and on my printed list of requirements.
So I'm not sure where I stand legally on this. In fact it reminded me of that TV programme on Discovery called 'Phantom Works' where the guy quotes £20,000 to restore the car, then at the end gives them an invoice for £80,0000 !!

Last Friday (18th July) I made them an offer.
Which after all the 'gearbox' problems have been taken off, is £400 up from what we agreed (8 months ago), and £400 down from what he wants.
I said that they should also take into consideration the unbelievable 8 month waiting time!!
Which I think is more than reasonable.

I have called them ever working day since, and they have still not given me a final answer yet?

DOES ANY ONE HAVE ANY GOOD SUGGESTIONS AS TO HOW I SHOULD PROCEED WITH THIS?

Hmm, tricky. They often talk in the classic mags about making sure you have good quotes of proposed work up front - the nature of these cars is more ends up having to be done, things drag on, other projects take priority, etc, But it is easy to talk, you assume these guys have a good reputation and will deliver. What reason to suspect otherwise?

I'd try to get them round a table and go through each item in turn, try to get a reasonable agreement on where the extra work is generated by themselves and where is it from your own deviation on spec/ work. So make it clear in writing you won't pay the invoice until they have entertained your concerns in this way, outline your offer again and why you think this is fair. Try to keep the emotion out of it, it's just a business transaction, so cool and calm and just the facts.

Good luck with it mate, I think you are approaching this in the right way, just might need a bit more patience. And real letters still carry some weight. At least you have the car back in your hands now.

Thanks for the advice Col.
Very wise words.

Unfortunately I do not have the car yet. I have not even driven it, or seen it in the last 8 and a half months.
They are specialists in Holbay engines, and are 2 and half hours drive from me.

I have already gone through everything with them in a straight forward non-emotional manner.
Detailing each item, and breaking down all costs.
We found an oil over charge. It was billed as £110, when it should have been £22.
and the gearbox problem, which I utterly refused to be responsible for, or pay for, as it was not my error.

I also explained to them what I thought was unreasonable, and what should have been discussed before proceeding any further.
Apparently the fully reconditioned and functional Twin Webers (off a Holbay Hunter GLS) were causing the car engine to violently vibrate (almost to the point that the mechanic thought it was going to come off the engine mounts) when he set off from the lights on a test drive. Why they are going on a test drive when the carbs obviously need work is also a concern.

They spent ages on this trying to find a solution (as they are not carb experts), eventually they found that it was 3 tiny holes (progression holes), and made a 'custom part' to block off a few of these holes.
They have charged me £385+VAT for this. I feel this is a massive over charge.

An expert would've spotted the problem in minutes. They took 7 hours to sort it out!!! That is unreasonable.
So I called Webcon (experts on Webers) who I explained about the violent vibration, and they instantly said 'Depending on what engine is used, depends on how many 'progression holes' you need, it ranges from 1-7 holes.".
He thought that mine, may have had extra holes drilled in it, and thats why they were being blocked.
I asked Webcon, "so what special custom part would be needed to block off these holes."
They said "Oh, you can just put a blob of solder in them, if you need more you simply drill a hole",
I said "But Richard says he's put a plug on it so the can be lifted out"
They said "any wire thick enough with a plug on the end would do it"
I then waited until he found the full spaces on my carb, and he then told me "Your carb should have three progression holes as standard, they should never be blocked up,
it is definitely not the progression holes that are causing the problem"

It took me, 5 minutes to find out what the problem was. Not seven hours.

I have also already sent them two emails. The first was my refusal to pay the current invoice because of the gearbox.
The second was to show them a breakdown of the invoice, and how I feel the amount I have offered is more than enough for the work carried out, considering that no extra expenses were ever discussed, and the incredible 8 month delay.
I don't even know how the car starts and drives yet. It might be a complete nightmare.

I've worked in with garages over the years, changing engines, putting in clutches, new pistons in, etc.
I have never ever had this problem, or anything remotely like it before.

Totally share your frustration here. Wonder why the carb is throwing up those issues - presumably because you don't have the GLS cam, or something like that, the progression holes aren't matched right?

Anyway, best thing I can say is do put it into a formal letter. Not sure emails hold a lot of water yet, although refer to them in the letter of course.

Suggest approach trading standards (go to the .gov website, there is a helpline, they might be able to direct you to the correct people on this - I m not very good on legal stuff, but I am sure your position of trying to be reasonable and putting a good, structured offer on the table will stand you in good stead, rather than just not paying)

Life is fun sometimes....

NEWS UPDATE................

A NEW INVOICE came through 10 minutes after I called COLTEC asking what numbers were on the side of my WEBERS, as WEBCON needed to know, so they could find the original spec sheets for the car.

COLTEC RACING have now given me credit for the following:-
Gearbox not going into gear £198 .................. This is now being paid by the Gearbox people. It was their fault.
Gearbox over-drive switch £215 .................... They have accepted responsibility for this.
Carburettor problem £472 ............................. I suspect they have credited this, due to the fact that they didn't inform me it would cost nearly £500. I could've bought a new carb for that.
Oil over-charge £96.26 ................................ I had been over-charged for engine oil. A genuine mistake by the accountant.

So the total comes to £2785 (inc VAT)

I still think they should take another £25 off for every month they've delayed.

well that looks like a good start, well done persevering it has obviously paid off..

Hello, I don't blame you being cross I run my own motorcycle shop and if I quote someone for work I do my very best to stick to it,things do go wrong and bolts snap ext but they should have called you to let you know of any major increases in the price . A tenner or something you don't mind but an increase of over two grand is ridiculous they are obviously low on work or funds and expect you to fill the gap.Tell them you will go on the local radio and let everyone know what they are like and go to the local papers if they don't accept your offer this usually works. if it was me I would go in there and ask to test drive it before you pay them what they want then drive back to your house park up and get out with your Keys then give them what your happy to pay not what they want .possession is nine tenths of the law remember.

britcar1 wrote:things do go wrong and bolts snap ext but they should have called you to let you know of any major increases in the price

.
I totally agree, and that's what I asked them do on the 'List of Things To Do to the car' I wrote and gave them prior to them commencing work, so I was even more frustrated when sent the invoice.

britcar1 wrote:A tenner or something you don't mind but an increase of over two grand is ridiculous they are obviously low on work or funds and expect you to fill the gap.

I also totally agree. The gearbox guy (a separate company), said exactly the same thing, as well as I think they're having financial problems.

britcar1 wrote:Tell them you will go on the local radio and let everyone know what they are like and go to the local papers if they don't accept your offer this usually works.

Nice, but I don't think it would work, as I'm not local, and I wouldn't know about the legality of such action with a court ruling. Otherwise it can be viewed as conjecture, and deformation of character.

britcar1 wrote:ask to test drive it before you pay them what they want then drive back to your house park up and get out with your Keys then give them what your happy to pay not what they want .possession is nine tenths of the law remember.

In principle that's a really great idea, but I live 150 miles away! I think they'd cotton on. Ha Ha.

What I have had to do is pay £2800 for the car after much negotiation, but it was still £1000 more than we agreed. So according to the law I have to get them to write "Paid in Dispute", and sign it on the invoice. Which they have done.

I have held back from Court proceedings, as there are a number of errors with the car and particularly the engine, so I still need them to amiable.
a) There is a big oil leak coming from the engine. There were zero leaks from my previous engine.
b) The bonnet won't close properly any more.
c) The hand brake button was broken.
d) ..... and worst of all the car runs like a dog with no legs. It's terrible. It's incredibly poor. In fact I took I took it to a rolling road & Weber specialist, as Coltec said "You need to get it re-jetted, then it will be fine".
The Weber guy drove my car, after spending 3 hours on and said "it was the worst running car, he has ever driven" in his 45 years of service.
He thinks the timing gear has been put on one tooth out, and would need the engine taking apart again.
Check out how bad it is here http://www.mediafire.com/watch/bdmc19ua ... G_0117.MOV

I have told Coltec about these errors (I have to legally give them the option to fix them), and they said they would look at it, and try to put it right.
I am currently waiting for a full inspection report from the rolling road guy, so I have documentation on all the problems.

My car was actually very good, before I gave it to Coltech. They have turned it into a dog!!! Grrrr.

Also due to the violent vibrating of the ropey engine the release bearing has taken a hit, and now it whines on full depression.
I mentioned this to Coltech but they said it wasn't their fault, and I would have to pay for this to be repaired.
I also have a leak in the restored gearbox. There were none before. The gearbox people (Last Transmissions) said as I supplied the gaskets (from Speedy Spares) it was not their fault, and I would have to pay for it to be put right. Last Transmissions are the same people who gave the so-called 'restored' gearbox back to Coltec without even checking it would go into gear. So when Coltec fitted it to the car, they found it wouldn't go into gear!! A school boy error if you ask me.

I've had all the luck.

My God what a balls up ! The gearbox people have you on the gaskets I'm afraid it's probably.not due to that but as you supplied them they can blame what they like unless you have an independent body take the gearbox apart and do a report as to why it leaks but that's going to cost too.The thing is if you take it back to coltec to sort the running out are they going to try and charge more and how longs it going to take ,I'm glad it wasn't me.I'd burn the place down I think.

It's a massive balls up.
I'm hoping the gearbox people will allow me to take out the gearbox in their garage, and fix it on the day.

Coltec are not going to charge for the Oil leak, the bonnet (being put back wrong), and the hand brake.
If the Timing Gear is diagnosed as being a tooth out by the rolling road/weber garage, then I will call Coltec, and no doubt they will not charge for it.
In fact I think they will be relieved that they can put the car right.

Coltec said if I get the car to them by 9am. They will put everyone on it, so I can drive away same day, pending on the delivery of any parts though.

I should have the report from the rolling road guy today. I'll update as the story unfolds.

Any news on the gear timing being out yet ?

Took it to another Rolling Road, and he said he feels the engine is good.
He changed the emulsion tubes in the carb, and it ran a little better (although it's still crap) with a lot more power at the top end.
It's around the 3000-4200 rpm that it's dodgy.

He recommended I purchase a new set of Twin Webers 40 DCOE 151/152

I can't afford them at present, and the guy knew of all the previous nightmares I'd had,
So I said "if I get them, and it turns out to not be the carbs, you will have to pay for them."
He laughed, and said "it's defo the carbs, I will buy them and I will fit them and get your car running smooth, You can then buy the carbs from me for cost price, and pay for my labour."
I said "That's great, but I would like to keep costs down, so would he mind if I fitted the carb at his place".
He agreed.

I'm saving up my pennies.

I am really sorry to hear about all your problems, this is truly a nightmare